Blogger Dennis Mangan kindly linked to my post 40 years of ultimatums in his post The Backlash Against Feminism:
Most conservatives just haven’t understood this, mostly in my opinion out of willful ignorance, and we’re regularly treated to columns by the likes of Kay Hymowitz and William Bennett telling young men that they need to “man up”, do “the right thing”, and marry. Conservatives through the years have generally offered only the most token opposition to feminism, said opposition appearing to be nil these days. (This is one factor in the emergence of an alternative right.)
This is of course just a teaser. Check out his full post. I’ll still be here when you get back.
As has happened here, the topic spurred on a vigorous discussion in the comments section. One thing which struck me reading the discussion however is how difficult it can be to distinguish Feminists from Traditional Conservatives. Things have been fairly heated here in the last few weeks, so I thought I would lighten things up just a bit with a blogging version of a TV quiz show. Help me out here; which commenters are Traditional Conservatives, and which ones are Feminists.
I’ll start with commenter Severn, who responded to a quote of me stating that Feminists and Traditional Conservatives had formed a tacit agreement:
I don’t buy it. The people I see on the right making the “why do men suck so much?” argument are always neocons, people like Kay Hymowitz and Bill Bennett. Neocons usually seem to borrow their views – apart from those on foreign policy – from the left.
Sorry, blogger’s prerogative. I’m going to go ahead and call this one. He has to be a Trad Con since he is defending them. I’ll let the rest of you have a shot at the next one, I promise. Next up is Dan:
There is a solution, and it is as radical as feminism. That solution is hard religious orthodoxy to the point of fundamentalism.
I am in a religious marriage and I would have to call myself thoroughly happy. I went to an Ivy League University and graduated with honors. I am a fairly successful federal employee. We will soon have four kids so far and she is just thirty. There are no plans yet to stop having kids. My tribe is increasing. My parents delightedly help with every bone in their body. They love the grandkids.
I know I promised, but at first I didn’t think it would be this easy. Dan is clearly a Trad Con. We could quit now but I’ll go through a few more quotes just for entertainment’s sake. Here is another excerpt from the same comment by Dan:
Men can take control of this. Just don’t be afraid to be single for a while. Work your butt off to get degrees and a good job and otherwise become desirable and then make traditional-mindedness a core criterion. Don’t dabble with dating anybody who is not a good candidate your traditional wife. And tell her your plans for her to be your stay-at-home-while-the-kids-are-small motherly wife clear early. If it scares her away or freaks her out, good. She won’t waste your time or your money…
P.S.
This business about men being taken to the cleaners in marriage is BS. If she is willing to have your kids, and you can continue your lineage through her, that is massive! I’d much rather get married and have kids and get divorced than never have kids at all. Although I also hope not to see divorce. Still, people who shy away from the whole thing are weenies.
Yup. I called it! Make sure she knows upfront she will be staying at home. Also Suck it up men, even if your wife does the worst to you, you should call yourself lucky. That has Trad Con all over it.
Here’s the next one, and it’s Dan again!:
I am the earlier poster, happily married, growing tribe etc. Those who think in terms of male superiority, and misogyny will get you nowhere.
Think of orthodox Jews. Women have equal importance and value, just different goals.
The stiff cultures of Italy, Japan and Korea, where you often just try to shove male superiority down women’s throats rather than have equal but different roles are dying out. Heck, even in Iran the women have clamped their uteri somewhat shut.
Ya gotta have a shared religious vision and its gotta be sincere or you are out of the game. Faking it for misogyny’s sake just puts you in league with *those* people.
Is it too late to change my vote? That sounded almost Feminist. Well, even if this Dan guy goes Fem, at least I can count on Severn. He is up next, and shares his impression of me:
Yeah. Sounds to me like the usual game boy hostility towards Christians. I clicked through the links of his argument with the Christian women, and I don’t think he got the better of it.
Women who divorce and remarry are “whores”? Really? I think it’s more than possible to argue that no-fault divorce has been a bad thing for men, women, children, and society in general without claiming that women (but not men) who divorce and remarry are whores. There’s way too much emotional hyperbole surrounding these topics.
And it’s not just a one off instance of rhetorical excess. Words like “whores” and “whorish” come up again and again in his and his commenters remarks. Along with the “cock carousel” which all those dirty dirty whores are supposedly riding.
I had such high hopes for Severn, but then he broke out the Womens Studies phraseology and even endorsed serial polyandry. He followed up in a later comment:
Less measured that “whorish whores riding the cock carousel”? What exactly would this less measured response look like – killing prostitutes and dumping their bodies in the forest?
I used to wonder about the mentality of guys who did that. It’s all become a lot clearer since I started reading game blogs. There are some very warped men out there whose image of women is based entirely on porn, girls-gone-wild videos, and Sex In The City. They’re dirty, dirty, dirty sluts and they deserve to be punished!
No worries though, because Orthodox Dan will redeem himself. I just know it:
I don’t know this Ferdinand Bardamu guy but he seems like a whining loser.
If you are a winner, you can make a marriage work and have a large clan of your descendants to love you in your old age. I have to say, good girls are not impossible to spot and if you’ve got it, you marry such a girl and Ferdinand Bardamu emphatically does not have it. Sucks to be Ferdinand Bardamu…
(1) Not all churches are the same. If a church has a weak marriage culture, change churches. There are tons to choose from. Most people know 10x more about car models than they do about church models, which is lame.
(2) A 62% chance of success is tolerable. (Remember that these Christians are marrying much younger; account for that and the D-rate would actually be much lower.) If you get divorced, you won’t die. You’ll just get back in the saddle like a real man. Besides, if misfortune has you back on the market in your forties, you will find the numbers are strongly in your favor as a man and love will be yours for the taking.
Finally! I never thought I would be so glad to read man up and marry those future divorcées you loser! Dan is clearly a Trad Con who was suffering from a temporary moment of Feminist weakness. More likely someone else was just posting under his name to confuse us. Either way, Dan assumes the problem is people just aren’t finding the good churches. I’m not convinced, because I have a standing offer on this blog to give free publicity to any church which is serious about marriage and none have yet come forward. I’m so pleased with Dan I’ll let it slide though and even put him up next (emphasis mine):
In Japan the religion is work and then the men drink with their coworkers until 1 am every night of the week. Japanese men help with nothing at home — they are one more kid to take care of, while American husbands help a lot. Doing housework is a good way for a guy to have lots of kids in 2011. Let her pop out babies while you do a lot of chores.
It is not womanly for a woman to be barren. Likewise, it is not manly for a man to be childless.
Ouch. Is it just me, or did Dan just mix Feminist slogans with his man up shaming language? And didn’t he say his wife is a traditional stay at home housewife? Why is he taking on the role of traditional provider and doing the housework? I mentioned this to Mrs. Dalrock, and she replied:
It’s nice when you help out a bit like when you clean a difficult pot, but if a husband does much more it just says kitchen bitch.
Next up is Severn, riding to the rescue of sluts everywhere with some expertly crafted shaming language:
It’s not the language which I find excessive, it’s the shrieking emotionalism. That’s expressed via language of course, but the language is not the problem.
Guy’s who go on (and on, and on, and on, and on, and on) about “dirty whorish sluts who ride the cock carousel while also being fat and ugly unlike those cute Asians, and by the way, why don’t they sleep with ME?” not only come across as losers. They come across as irrational and unstable. I certainly do not expect people to only say things which I agree with. I do expect people to have at least a tenuous grasp on reality and to say things which can be objectively analyzed and intelligently discussed. “Cock carousel”? It’s like referring to Jews as “blood-sucking parasites”. The idea is not to stimulate thought but to shut it down.
And it succeeds, just look at the comments on this thread. A lot of heat and not much light.
I have to confess I’m stumped on this. I don’t remember if this is Feminist or Trad Con. I’m thinking both. At any rate, Severn weighs in again with a helpful clarification on which camp he is in:
Since I’m one of those social conservatives, perhaps you can tell me which wrong tree you think I’m barking up.
(The phrase “social conservative” is redundant, btw)
That would seem to settle the matter. Except then Dennis Mangan called him out on comparing the psychological mindset of gamesters to serial killers. This brought the following doubling down:
No, this comes from the commenter who noticed the distinct psychological similarity between men who see all women as “dirty whorish sluts and sluttish whores who love COCK!” and the actual men who are serial killers of prostitutes.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen a Gilligan more upset at slut shaming.
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